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Date: May 16, 2005
From: "David Faught" <dave_faught@xxxxxxxxx>
You might start with a look at the Balloon 3D Tutorial and the Croquet FAQ at http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/croquet/5 The Balloon 3D Tutorial can be accessed within Croquet from the world "open" menu in the "Programming Tools" project on the first Croquet screen (before you start any 3D Teapot). After you get into this a ways, you might want to look at the recent Fractal Terrain changes in Croquet for a further example.
Date: May 16, 2005
From: Howard Stearns <hstearns@xxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-750925-1141361-2005.05.15-13.47.22--hstearns#wisc.edu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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The info at http://croquetproject.org can be overwhelming.All the info on the FAQ and Links pages are helpful, but there's so much. The links page sends you to http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/croquet, which brings a lot of the key starting-out information together. It could certainly be organized better, and being a Wiki, you can make such improvements directly on your own.
Finding the direct answer to your #makeMars: question probably requires traversing quite a few links. This can be either a positive or a negative. Anyway, I've just added some answers in http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/croquet/13, which is pointed to from the Wiki via http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/croquet/5 (yuck...)
With regard to actually fixing the problem: if someone sits at a Linux box, (I don't,) maybe they can go ahead test a change and then upload it to the ticket in Mantis as a solution (creating the ticket if it doesn't already exist). Might be a good exercise in learning what's what with Croquet/Squeak/Mantis.
-H On May 15, 2005, at 1:47 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
Am 15.05.2005 um 19:26 schrieb John Floren:Bert Freudenberg wrote:Am 15.05.2005 um 17:38 schrieb John Floren:It does. The #makeMars: method looks for Content/mars/ masterTerrain.ase which is not found on a case-sensitive filesystem. The file is actually in directory Mars, not mars, and is named MasterTerrain.ASE, not masterTerrain.ase.Here is the text in the error box: UndefinedObject(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: UnixFileDirectory class(FileDirectory class)>>splitName:to: FileDirectory class>>dirPathFor: TLoad3DSMax>>initializeWithFileName:scale:shadeAngle:textureMode: TLoad3DSMax>>initializeWithFileName:scale: TeapotMorph>>makeMars: TeapotMorph>>initializeDefaultSpace [] in TeapotMorph>>requestInitialSpace That is all I could read on the screen. Hope that helps,You should file a bug report for this. To fix it, change the offending line in #makeMars:. - Bert -How do I find and fix the offending line in #makeMars:?You could also rename the directory and file on your disk.I have only rudimentary programming experience and none whatsoever with Squeak or Croquet.Well, the current pre-release of Croquet is aimed at developers. You might want to google for Squeak tutorials.Also, where do I file a bug report and what info should I include?http://www.opencroquet.org/About_Croquet/faqs.html#36 - Bert - --- You are currently subscribed to croquet-user as: hstearns@xxxxxxxxTo unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-croquet-user-829196H@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: May 15, 2005
From: Bert Freudenberg <bert@xxxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-728292-1141217-2005.05.15-12.20.04--bert#impara.de@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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<LYRIS-728292-1141217-2005.05.15-12.20.04--bert#impara.de@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Am 15.05.2005 um 19:26 schrieb John Floren:
Bert Freudenberg wrote:Am 15.05.2005 um 17:38 schrieb John Floren:It does. The #makeMars: method looks for Content/mars/ masterTerrain.ase which is not found on a case-sensitive filesystem. The file is actually in directory Mars, not mars, and is named MasterTerrain.ASE, not masterTerrain.ase.Here is the text in the error box: UndefinedObject(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: UnixFileDirectory class(FileDirectory class)>>splitName:to: FileDirectory class>>dirPathFor: TLoad3DSMax>>initializeWithFileName:scale:shadeAngle:textureMode: TLoad3DSMax>>initializeWithFileName:scale: TeapotMorph>>makeMars: TeapotMorph>>initializeDefaultSpace [] in TeapotMorph>>requestInitialSpace That is all I could read on the screen. Hope that helps,You should file a bug report for this. To fix it, change the offending line in #makeMars:. - Bert -How do I find and fix the offending line in #makeMars:?
You could also rename the directory and file on your disk.
I have only rudimentary programming experience and none whatsoever with Squeak or Croquet.
Well, the current pre-release of Croquet is aimed at developers. You might want to google for Squeak tutorials.
Also, where do I file a bug report and what info should I include?
http://www.opencroquet.org/About_Croquet/faqs.html#36 - Bert -
Date: May 15, 2005
From: John Floren <jfloren@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-1067512-1140994-2005.05.15-10.46.36--jfloren#moseslake-wa.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
References:
<LYRIS-1067512-1140994-2005.05.15-10.46.36--jfloren#moseslake-wa.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Bert Freudenberg wrote:
How do I find and fix the offending line in #makeMars:? I have only rudimentary programming experience and none whatsoever with Squeak or Croquet. Also, where do I file a bug report and what info should I include?Am 15.05.2005 um 17:38 schrieb John Floren:Here is the text in the error box: UndefinedObject(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: UnixFileDirectory class(FileDirectory class)>>splitName:to: FileDirectory class>>dirPathFor: TLoad3DSMax>>initializeWithFileName:scale:shadeAngle:textureMode: TLoad3DSMax>>initializeWithFileName:scale: TeapotMorph>>makeMars: TeapotMorph>>initializeDefaultSpace [] in TeapotMorph>>requestInitialSpace That is all I could read on the screen. Hope that helps,It does. The #makeMars: method looks for Content/mars/ masterTerrain.ase which is not found on a case-sensitive filesystem. The file is actually in directory Mars, not mars, and is named MasterTerrain.ASE, not masterTerrain.ase.You should file a bug report for this. To fix it, change the offending line in #makeMars:. - Bert -
Thanks John Floren -- http://nuwen.net/~digi/cluster Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low. -- Wallace Sayre
Date: May 15, 2005
From: John-Reed Maffeo <maffeo@xxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-872700-1122604-2005.05.06-00.00.18--maffeo#mac.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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<LYRIS-872700-1122604-2005.05.06-00.00.18--maffeo#mac.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Hello All,I have developed a framework to extract GIS data from the USGS data distribution format called SDTS. This data includes elevation and planimetric information which I am interested in using to create 3D topographic maps.
Croquet has the concept of 3D worlds and avatars which can travel about in them. I would like to create a 3D world of something like the Grand Canyon of the Colorado River or Death Valley California, place my avatar in it and 'hike around'.
The problem is that I don't have a clue about where to begin. Is there a relatively simple way for me to create an instance of a world where the 'floor' of the world is defined by an array of elevation points with a bit map of roads, trails, rivers, streams, etc draped over it? Extra credit for being able to generate realistic surface features based on data describing the geologic and biome features;)))
There is a lot of discussion in the literature about geographic projections which may or may not be relevant and which I don't really understand in any case.
What I think I know is that the Croquet environment has rich graphical capabilities and I suspect that it would not be too difficult to adapt them to the visualization of real world phenomena.
Any hints or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. John-Reed Maffeo Mesa, Arizona, USA
Date: May 15, 2005
From: Bert Freudenberg <bert@xxxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-728292-1140979-2005.05.15-10.32.24--bert#impara.de@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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<LYRIS-728292-1140979-2005.05.15-10.32.24--bert#impara.de@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Am 15.05.2005 um 17:38 schrieb John Floren:
Here is the text in the error box: UndefinedObject(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: UnixFileDirectory class(FileDirectory class)>>splitName:to: FileDirectory class>>dirPathFor: TLoad3DSMax>>initializeWithFileName:scale:shadeAngle:textureMode: TLoad3DSMax>>initializeWithFileName:scale: TeapotMorph>>makeMars: TeapotMorph>>initializeDefaultSpace [] in TeapotMorph>>requestInitialSpace That is all I could read on the screen. Hope that helps,
It does. The #makeMars: method looks for Content/mars/ masterTerrain.ase which is not found on a case-sensitive filesystem. The file is actually in directory Mars, not mars, and is named MasterTerrain.ASE, not masterTerrain.ase.
You should file a bug report for this. To fix it, change the offending line in #makeMars:. - Bert -
Date: May 15, 2005
From: John Floren <jfloren@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<b690a993a1f9339b6566731601c51913@xxxxxxxx>
References:
<b690a993a1f9339b6566731601c51913@xxxxxxxx>
Howard Stearns wrote:
I don't know. findLast: is used by some file system operations, so it could be having trouble finding something.Could you tell us more about the error message and debugging-type information? e.g., contents of SqueakDebug.log in the top level Croquet directory, if the date matches.On May 13, 2005, at 9:04 AM, John Floren wrote:HelloI recently downloaded croquet and installed it on my Debian Linux computer. When I try to run "Teapot", it starts to load, but then freezes with an error message titled "MessageNoteUnderstood: UndefinedObject>>findLast:" and other debugging-type information in the window area. I ran the "update code from server" script and downloaded the newest version of Jasmine, so all my code should be up to date.Any ideas on why this is happening? Thanks John -- http://nuwen.net/~digi/cluster The sweeter the apple, the blacker the core -- Scratch a lover and find a foe! -- Dorothy Parker, "Ballad of a Great Weariness" --- You are currently subscribed to croquet-user as: hstearns@xxxxxxxxTo unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-croquet-user-829196H@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
This was in SqueakDebug.log: ScriptessageSend)>>valueWithEvent:eWithEvent:nts:event: Here is the text in the error box: UndefinedObject(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: UnixFileDirectory class(FileDirectory class)>>splitName:to: FileDirectory class>>dirPathFor: TLoad3DSMax>>initializeWithFileName:scale:shadeAngle:textureMode: TLoad3DSMax>>initializeWithFileName:scale: TeapotMorph>>makeMars: TeapotMorph>>initializeDefaultSpace [] in TeapotMorph>>requestInitialSpace That is all I could read on the screen. Hope that helps, John F. -- http://nuwen.net/~digi/cluster The mome rath isn't born that could outgrabe me. -- Nicol Williamson
Date: May 14, 2005
From: David Faught <dave_faught@xxxxxxxxx>
There is no reason to chop off Balloon3D's Wonderland head in the face of the "impending Croquet explosion". Although Wonderland does not have the collaboration aspect of Croquet, it is still a very capable and cool 3D environment. One of my biggest peeves with the CURRENT Jasmine Croquet is that there is no clear functioning GUI choice for developing new tools. This is the source of a lot of frustration for me. I have reached that point in my life where I have had a full load of experience with bits and bytes. I want power tools! oouurh, oouurh, oouurh (think Tim Allen). Just trying to create content for Croquet is a challenge, and it is often necessary to resort to outside tools. One (of several) of the coolest things about Wonderland is the Pooh drawing, which is a port of Takeo Igarashi's Teddy program. If you have never tried this, you're missing out on some big fun! It is simple to use and quite powerful. Unfortunately, there is a bug at the Squeak 3.6 level that Croquet is based on that prevents the Wonderland Pooh drawing from working properly. This was fixed later in the Squeak 3.6 cycle, so to try it out, you might want to start with a Squeak 3.7 or 3.8 "full" image. <digression>
Date: May 14, 2005
From: David Faught <dave_faught@xxxxxxxxx>
There is no reason to chop off Balloon3D's Wonderland head in the face
of the "impending Croquet explosion". Although Wonderland does not
have the collaboration aspect of Croquet, it is still a very capable
and cool 3D environment. One of my biggest peeves with the CURRENT
Jasmine Croquet is that there is no clear functioning GUI choice for
developing new tools. This is the source of a lot of frustration for
me. I have reached that point in my life where I have had a full load
of experience with bits and bytes. I want power tools! oouurh,
oouurh, oouurh (think Tim Allen).
Just trying to create content for Croquet is a challenge, and it is
often necessary to resort to outside tools. One (of several) of the
coolest things about Wonderland is the Pooh drawing, which is a port of
Takeo Igarashi's Teddy program. If you have never tried this, you're
missing out on some big fun! It is simple to use and quite powerful.
Unfortunately, there is a bug at the Squeak 3.6 level that Croquet is
based on that prevents the Wonderland Pooh drawing from working
properly. This was fixed later in the Squeak 3.6 cycle, so to try it
out, you might want to start with a Squeak 3.7 or 3.8 "full" image.
<digression>
>From the Squeak main screen, go to "The Worlds of Squeak" project and
then the "Squeak in 3D" project. Then bring up the Morphic halo
(alt-click in Windows) for the camera object, which is the main view of
Wonderland. On the right side in the center of the halo is a black
icon on a white background that looks a little like a teddy bear. click
this icon and it allows you to draw 1 stroke in 2D on the camera view.
When you finish the stroke, it will inflate the figure you drew and put
it in the 3D world. If you then bring up the halo for that new Sketch
object and pick the pen icon in the center, you can paint directly on
the 3D object. If you learn about the other controls for moving and
animating objects in Wonderland, you will see some of the real power of
this 3D environment.
</digression>
Although Pooh objects (now called Popout objects) are possible in
Croquet in the TPainter tool, only a part of the interface is present,
and so the whole process is hindered. With the current lack of a clear
GUI choice within the Croquet environment, the missing part of the
interface, that of being able to select an object and repaint its
surface texture directly and interactively in 3D, cannot be done.
But wait! I already have that capability in Wonderland. If only it
were possible to export Wonderland objects to a well known file format,
such as VRML or OBJ or ASE or MDL, etc. That introduces some
interesting possibilities!
Speaking of which, Croquet lacks this feature as well. Why not make
object import AND export available for the purpose of exchanging the
objects with other tools? Having only object import functions
available is a rather self-centered view, and lacks the sense of
cooperative utility that truly good tools have. Someday far in the
future, without the ability to export its content to a well known
format, even all of Croquet's eventual cool content will wither and die
away because it cannot be carried forward to whatever the next great
thing is.
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
Date: May 13, 2005
From: "David Faught" <dave_faught@xxxxxxxxx>
David P. Reed wrote: >You can sense the tension when the IT department refers to its >users as "lusers" (a term of extreme disparagement, which >presumes that users should not be allowed to decide what >communications are legitimate and to their own benefit and the >benefit of doing their job or living their life). I've not heard that one before, and I can tell you that the IT department that I work in would not use such a term because we realize that we are supporting our users, not the other way around. We use technology out of business necessity and for strategic advantage in the marketplace, not because it is fun or cool. Our network-related security practices are aimed at keeping the fruits of idle hands out of our workplace using the best available means, not restricting what our users can do. That being said, I can tell you right now that I will likely be forced to use the next version of Croquet only at home, which I will happily do. I'm not likely to leave the Croquet community just because I can't (currently) justify its use at work. Unfortunately, many in the academic community may not have the same choice.
Date: May 13, 2005
From: Daniel Morrigan <daniel.morrigan@xxxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-1067452-1137192-2005.05.13-08.58.07--daniel.morrigan#gmail.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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Hello
I recently downloaded croquet and installed it on my Debian Linux
computer. When I try to run "Teapot", it starts to load, but then
freezes with an error message titled "MessageNoteUnderstood:
UndefinedObject>>findLast:" and other debugging-type information in the
window area.
I ran the "update code from server" script and downloaded the newest
version of Jasmine, so all my code should be up to date.
Any ideas on why this is happening?
Thanks
John
--
http://nuwen.net/~digi/cluster
The sweeter the apple, the blacker the core --
Scratch a lover and find a foe!
-- Dorothy Parker, "Ballad of a Great Weariness"
---
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Date: May 13, 2005
From: "David P. Reed" <dpreed@xxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-728493-1136549-2005.05.13-00.00.17--dpreed#reed.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
References:
<LYRIS-728493-1136549-2005.05.13-00.00.17--dpreed#reed.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Just FYI ... I am working on a long-term solution to the NAT box problem.There's a lot of new activity in the P2P world to find general solutions that allow "consenting" p2p apps to communicate directly, despite NAT boxes. There is, however, no perfect solution yet.
The UPnP solution is flawed because only a small number of NAT solutions support it (after all, it is a Microsoft-specific protocol that they have not succeeded in evangelizing to the whole world).
There is a class of solutions that involve what is now called "hole punching" (a bad term, because it is not* a security risk, but "hole" implies that. This basically involves using an intermediary node to inttroduce two machines behind NATs to each other, and then reusing the ports thus opened to send packets directly between the two endpoints. (Skype uses this when possible). Hole punching works on more than half the access points out there (statistics are not reliable, though, and yours may not support it - google NATCHECK for a test program).
Finally, there is the possibility of a "virtual peer-to-peer network" (my term, but its more solid-sounding than "overlay network" which sounds inefficient and parasitic) or VP2PN. A VPN is typically implemented by a server that tunnels remote machines so they appear as if they are on a common physical network (a star with the common network as the hub). This makes VPN's problematic for real-time peer communication. There are several experimental VP2PN's that are out there, but none that seem likely to achieve critical mass at this time.
Today, you should be able to use a group VPN to connect Jasmine sites at many locations, assuming you make sure that each client is known by its VPN address, not its public address. This will slow the network down, perhaps too much. In order to make it work, you need to patch Jasmine's network code so that it sets the TeaHost class variable ThisHost to the local VPN address of the client machine, not the "primary address". You also need to make sure that your "personal firewall" (Sygate, ZoneAlarm, ipfilter, ... whatever) allows all packets to flow on the VPN. This use of a special VPN is possibly against corporate policies at most companies - if it works at all - but is probably fine at academic institutions.
I say *should* because whether the VPN supports broadcast UDP packets being varies.
* as I mentioned above, hole punching is a way of consenting peers to communicate despite being behind NAT boxes/firewalls. The claim that it remains secure is controversial because it depends on the definition of security you believe. If your definition of security is that two users sharing data with informed consent is OK, hole punching is fine - there is no way that an outsider can use such a hole if the two end users use cryptographic authentication over the link. However, if the definition of security is that the entity that the user works for or who owns the network should be able to block communications it does not believe to be of value (what is called in the trade "non-discretionary security policy" because the user has no discretion to decide who he/she can communicate with or what he/she can communicate about), then hole punching eliminates the ability of the NAT box to block traffic unilaterally. Consumer products almost certainly should take the former view. The military and many corporations take the latter view. Academic institutions, especially those who view themselves as corporate, seem to be moving to the corporate latter view. You can sense the tension when the IT department refers to its users as "lusers" (a term of extreme disparagement, which presumes that users should not be allowed to decide what communications are legitimate and to their own benefit and the benefit of doing their job or living their life).
In general, Croquet takes a user-centric view, so we plan to provide tools for bypassing NATs and firewalls conveniently. However, it is also possible to enforce non-discretionary controls on Croquet, and I'm not going to spend a huge amount of time trying to invent ways to outwit the corporate IT departments who may choose to invent torture tests for packets that attempt to leave or enter their network, in an attempt to stop "lusers" and protect them from themselves. So Croquet may not work in all places. In such cases, corporate users can always negotiate based on their needs to do their job or use Croquet on their own premises and own machines.
Date: May 13, 2005
From: Howard Stearns <hstearns@xxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-750925-1137192-2005.05.13-08.58.07--hstearns#wisc.edu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
References:
<LYRIS-750925-1137192-2005.05.13-08.58.07--hstearns#wisc.edu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Could you tell us more about the error message and debugging-type information? e.g., contents of SqueakDebug.log in the top level Croquet directory, if the date matches.
On May 13, 2005, at 9:04 AM, John Floren wrote:
HelloI recently downloaded croquet and installed it on my Debian Linux computer. When I try to run "Teapot", it starts to load, but then freezes with an error message titled "MessageNoteUnderstood: UndefinedObject>>findLast:" and other debugging-type information in the window area. I ran the "update code from server" script and downloaded the newest version of Jasmine, so all my code should be up to date.Any ideas on why this is happening? Thanks John -- http://nuwen.net/~digi/cluster The sweeter the apple, the blacker the core -- Scratch a lover and find a foe! -- Dorothy Parker, "Ballad of a Great Weariness" --- You are currently subscribed to croquet-user as: hstearns@xxxxxxxxTo unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-croquet-user-829196H@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: May 13, 2005
From: John Floren <jfloren@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
HelloI recently downloaded croquet and installed it on my Debian Linux computer. When I try to run "Teapot", it starts to load, but then freezes with an error message titled "MessageNoteUnderstood: UndefinedObject>>findLast:" and other debugging-type information in the window area. I ran the "update code from server" script and downloaded the newest version of Jasmine, so all my code should be up to date.
Any ideas on why this is happening? Thanks John -- http://nuwen.net/~digi/cluster The sweeter the apple, the blacker the core -- Scratch a lover and find a foe! -- Dorothy Parker, "Ballad of a Great Weariness"
Date: May 13, 2005
From: "Welch, Ronald P (US SSA)" <ronald.p.welch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Not being a networking guru by any stretch of the imagination, I might be missing the point entirely here. But wouldn't Cees de Groot's AardWorks Gossip (http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/5629) provide a software based solution to these types of problems for Croquet? ----------=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-========oOo========-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---------- mailto:Ronald.P.Welch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Phone:(607)770-3701 BAE SYSTEMS Controls 600 Main St Johnson City, NY 13790-1888 ----------=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-===================-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---------- -----Original Message----- From: Oliver Bye [mailto:byeo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 5:05 PM To: croquet-user@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: [croquet-user] firewalls You might want to read about UPnP enabled routers, as it addresses this problem for NAT firewalls that support it. http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/support/upnp01.msp x UPnP is aimed at the home and small office environment (So wouldn't probably address the campus IT issue that kicked this thread off) UPnP allows machines on the private side of the router to do the following. * Learning public IP address * Enumerating existing port mappings * Adding and removing port mappings * Assigning lease times to mappings This means a P2P application like Croquet can request a server socket on the public side and have the address translation route packets to it. Further more it can learn the public IP address which it can then publish in a manor it chooses. (e.g. Croquet's rendezvous server). This solution scales much better than having the router explicitly support p2p protocols, the classic being active FTP, where the packet inspector detects and rewrites the outgoing DATA commands swapping the private data for public data. UPnP removes the need for the router to mess with the application layer protocol and puts this responsibility back with the application layer, where it should be. I'm sure "bot network" writers are far more aware of this new feature than your average home user. Linux's optimistic IP SEC might provide a short term work around for Internet croqeteers worried about malicious rabbit avatars loose in their image. I have a nasty feeling I should be kicking myself. Does this mean that the Internet rendezvous server at reed.com has been working for a while? Have you all be having a cool time playing Croquet? I was under the impression that it wasn't enabled yet. Oli Bye David Faught wrote: >Peter Amstutz wrote: > > >>Unfortunately what tripped us up was Network Address Translation >>(NAT)which is extremely common in home and small office networks >>where the whole network shares a single IP to be able to talk to >>the internet. >> >> > >There is another consideration to this beside security and its >headaches. My ISP charges for each outside IP address, so a firewall that allows me to use multiple inside machines with a single outside IP address saves me money! >--- >You are currently subscribed to croquet-user as: byeo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-croquet-user-829196H@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > --- You are currently subscribed to croquet-user as: Ronald.P.Welch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-croquet-user-829196H@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: May 12, 2005
From: Oliver Bye <byeo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-814187-1126576-2005.05.08-14.50.35--byeo#xpdeveloper.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
References:
<LYRIS-814187-1126576-2005.05.08-14.50.35--byeo#xpdeveloper.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/support/upnp01.mspxUPnP is aimed at the home and small office environment (So wouldn't probably address the campus IT issue that kicked this thread off)
UPnP allows machines on the private side of the router to do the following. • Learning public IP address • Enumerating existing port mappings • Adding and removing port mappings • Assigning lease times to mappingsThis means a P2P application like Croquet can request a server socket on the public side and have the address translation route packets to it. Further more it can learn the public IP address which it can then publish in a manor it chooses. (e.g. Croquet's rendezvous server).
This solution scales much better than having the router explicitly support p2p protocols, the classic being active FTP, where the packet inspector detects and rewrites the outgoing DATA commands swapping the private data for public data. UPnP removes the need for the router to mess with the application layer protocol and puts this responsibility back with the application layer, where it should be.
I'm sure "bot network" writers are far more aware of this new feature than your average home user. Linux's optimistic IP SEC might provide a short term work around for Internet croqeteers worried about malicious rabbit avatars loose in their image.
I have a nasty feeling I should be kicking myself. Does this mean that the Internet rendezvous server at reed.com has been working for a while? Have you all be having a cool time playing Croquet? I was under the impression that it wasn't enabled yet.
Oli Bye David Faught wrote:
Peter Amstutz wrote:Unfortunately what tripped us up was Network Address Translation (NAT)which is extremely common in home and small office networks where the whole network shares a single IP to be able to talk to the internet.There is another consideration to this beside security and its headaches. My ISP charges for each outside IP address, so a firewall that allows me to use multiple inside machines with a single outside IP address saves me money! --- You are currently subscribed to croquet-user as: byeo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-croquet-user-829196H@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: May 12, 2005
From: Bert Freudenberg <bert@xxxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-728292-1135403-2005.05.12-11.51.54--bert#impara.de@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
References:
<LYRIS-728292-1135403-2005.05.12-11.51.54--bert#impara.de@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Am 12.05.2005 um 18:49 schrieb Daniel Morrigan:
Is it possible to create a portal with a different geometry?
Yes. For an example, see makeDungeonSphere: - Bert -
Date: May 12, 2005
From: "Daniel Morrigan" <daniel.morrigan@xxxxxxxxx>
After visiting many different Croquet environments I have not seen any geometry but rectangular for the portals. Is it possible to create a portal with a different geometry? -- He who says it cannot be done is interrupting the one doing it.
Date: May 12, 2005
From: Howard Stearns <hstearns@xxxxxxxx>
There has been some improvements to wetmachine, where I have my "Inventing the Future" blog.
In particular:1. There's a separate "home" for just Inventing the Future stuff at http://wetmachine.com/itf/
Of course, the general site (http://wetmachine.com) carries both this and all the other neat stuff from the Wetmachine crowd, including quite a bit of legal stuff that may be of interest to Croquet P2Pers.
2. You can now get an RSS feed and/or email notification of changes. See http://www.wetmachine.com//item/285
Date: May 12, 2005
From: Howard Stearns <hstearns@xxxxxxxx>
There has been some improvements to wetmachine, where I have my "Inventing the Future" blog.
In particular:1. There's a separate "home" for just Inventing the Future stuff at http://wetmachine.com/itf/
Of course, the general site (http://wetmachine.com) carries both this and all the other neat stuff from the Wetmachine crowd, including quite a bit of legal stuff that may be of interest to Croquet P2Pers.
2. You can now get an RSS feed and/or email notification of changes. See http://www.wetmachine.com//item/285
Date: May 08, 2005
From: "David Faught" <dave_faught@xxxxxxxxx>
Peter Amstutz wrote: >Unfortunately what tripped us up was Network Address Translation >(NAT)which is extremely common in home and small office networks >where the whole network shares a single IP to be able to talk to >the internet. There is another consideration to this beside security and its headaches. My ISP charges for each outside IP address, so a firewall that allows me to use multiple inside machines with a single outside IP address saves me money!
Date: May 08, 2005
From: "David Faught" <dave_faught@xxxxxxxxx>
Peter Amstutz wrote: >Unfortunately what tripped us up was Network Address Translation >(NAT)which is extremely common in home and small office networks >where the whole network shares a single IP to be able to talk to >the internet. In that case there is no way to get the firewall to >forward inbound TCP connections without manual intervention. From >what it sounds like, Croquet doesn't handle this either...? Yes, this is a variation of NAT that Linux calls "masquerading". I had been thinking in terms of the network at work, but my home network does this too, and I probably won't be changing it anytime soon. We get enough crud coming in as it is. It allows anyone inside my firewall to use any destination socket they choose going out, but currently allows nothing to come in. As you say, it can be manually set up to forward an incoming port number to a particular inside host. I used to have a SuperSwiki set up this way to easily move Squeak projects between home and work. If I were going to open this up for Croquet, I would NOT want to use port 80, although the port number can be translated too. I don't think there is a way on my home firewall to allow incoming requests to be directed to multiple inside hosts, so it might be tricky to get multiple inside hosts on an outside Croquet network without some type of "meeting place" server. While this kind of defeats the idea of P2P, it might be a practical alternative for now.
Date: May 08, 2005
From: Edouard <edouard-jo.klein@xxxxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-881002-1126465-2005.05.08-13.13.14--edouard-jo.klein#wanadoo.fr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
References:
<LYRIS-881002-1126465-2005.05.08-13.13.14--edouard-jo.klein#wanadoo.fr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Le 8 mai 05, à 20:13, Mark P. McCahill a écrit :
On May 8, 2005, at 1:05 PM, Hans N Beck wrote:Hi,it depends really on user rights: I've used Jasmine as Admin, and now it works :-)) But I don't really understand it. I think - from theory - it should work for all users ? At least this would be my wish (because I always don't work as admin....;-)Aha! I'm sure everyone working on OpenAL and Croquet was always running as an OS X admin user. I'll ask Peter Moor to take a look at having this work for non-admin folks on OS X. In the meantime, run as admin.
If you don't want to log as an admin to a graphic session, log in as you usually do, then launch the terminal, type login and log as an admin and launch squeak/croquet via the command line.
---You are currently subscribed to croquet-user as: edouard-jo.klein@xxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-croquet-user-829196H@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: May 08, 2005
From: "Mark P. McCahill" <mpm@xxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<771F2D89-E188-45CF-9BAA-CDE68C6F88C4@xxxxxxxxxxx>
References:
<771F2D89-E188-45CF-9BAA-CDE68C6F88C4@xxxxxxxxxxx>
On May 8, 2005, at 1:05 PM, Hans N Beck wrote:
Hi,it depends really on user rights: I've used Jasmine as Admin, and now it works :-)) But I don't really understand it. I think - from theory - it should work for all users ? At least this would be my wish (because I always don't work as admin....;-)
Aha! I'm sure everyone working on OpenAL and Croquet was always running as an OS X admin user. I'll ask Peter Moor to take a look at having this work for non-admin folks on OS X. In the meantime, run as admin.
Date: May 08, 2005
From: "Mark P. McCahill" <mpm@xxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-728548-1126385-2005.05.08-11.48.40--mpm#umn.edu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
References:
<LYRIS-728548-1126385-2005.05.08-11.48.40--mpm#umn.edu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
On May 8, 2005, at 11:48 AM, Jens Grubert wrote:
Hello, thanks for the advice. I solved the problem by looking at TUserCamera>>snapshot and TZoomNavigatorMorph>>clickSnapshot (like you wrote). So I can go to a new TSpace (at his origin) via: ts := TSnapshot new initializeWithFrame: aTSpace. (self activeCamera) gotoSpace: ts root transform: ts globalTransform.
I think this would work to put you at the origin of the space: myTransform := B3DMatrix4x4 identity. (self activeCamera) gotoSpace: ts root transform: myTransform. or if you wanted to rotate about the Y axis at anAngle myTransform := B3DMatrix4x4 identity rotationAroundY: anAngle. (self activeCamera) gotoSpace: ts root transform: myTransform. So if you start from an identity matrix and then apply offsets or rotations to it, you can control where you arrive in the new space without contructing a portal or a snapshot. Of course, I haven't actually tried this but it ought to work. :-)
Date: May 08, 2005
From: Jens Grubert <jenosch@xxxxxx>
References:
<17286.1115570792@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Hello, thanks for the advice. I solved the problem by looking at TUserCamera>>snapshot and TZoomNavigatorMorph>>clickSnapshot (like you wrote). So I can go to a new TSpace (at his origin) via: ts := TSnapshot new initializeWithFrame: aTSpace. (self activeCamera) gotoSpace: ts root transform: ts globalTransform. Kind regards, Jens > I believe that you are getting in trouble because gotoSpace really wants > a transform. This makes sense because you really need to specify > where in the new space you want to arrive, and that is what the > transform > does. If you look at TZoomNavigatorMorph>>clickSnapshot you'll see that > is it using the globalTransform of the item (item = the snapshot when > it was taken). > > owner activeCamera gotoSpace: item root transform: item > globalTransform. > > I imagine you could use an identity matrix for the transform and arrive > at the origin of the new space. If you have some idea of where and in > what orientation you want to arrive, you could set that by constructing > a transformation matrix with the right x,y,z offsets and rotations. > > On May 8, 2005, at 9:55 AM, Jens Grubert wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > is it somehow possible for the Avatar to enter a new TSpace without > > going > > through a TPortal? > > I tried TAvatar's "addToNewSpace:aSpace" method but it didn't work out > > (when calling it with a new TSpace nothing happend). > > > > > > When I tried > > self activeCamera gotoSpace: toSpace transform: nil. > > in a TeapotMorph > > > > I get the Error: > > > > MessageNotUnderstood: UndefinedObject>>composeWith: > > > > TUserCamera>>followAvatar > > TUserCamera>>preRender > > TUserCamera(TCamera)>>renderView > > MyTeapotMorph>>glRenderOn: > > ... > > > > Do i have to submit the correct transform? How do i get it? > > Or is there anything other causing this error? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Kind regards, > > Jens > > > > -- > > / "e-bussines or no bussines" \ Jens Grubert > > +.: c :.+ IT Solutions > > +. o ..+ Content Managing > > +. M ..+ Media Design > > +. L ..+ IT Decisons > > +. a .+ Hans-Grundig-Str.14 > > +.: b :.+ 39128 Magdeburg > > \ e-Mail: jenosch@xxxxxx / Tel. 0391 2544994 > > > > +++ Lassen Sie Ihren Gedanken freien Lauf... z.B. per FreeSMS +++ > > GMX bietet bis zu 100 FreeSMS/Monat: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to croquet-user as: mpm@xxxxxxx > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-croquet- > > user-728548G@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to croquet-user as: jenosch@xxxxxx > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > leave-croquet-user-829196H@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > -- / "e-bussines or no bussines" \ Jens Grubert +.: c :.+ IT Solutions +. o ..+ Content Managing +. M ..+ Media Design +. L ..+ IT Decisons +. a .+ Hans-Grundig-Str.14 +.: b :.+ 39128 Magdeburg \ e-Mail: jenosch@xxxxxx / Tel. 0391 2544994 +++ Lassen Sie Ihren Gedanken freien Lauf... z.B. per FreeSMS +++ GMX bietet bis zu 100 FreeSMS/Monat: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail -- +++ Lassen Sie Ihren Gedanken freien Lauf... z.B. per FreeSMS +++ GMX bietet bis zu 100 FreeSMS/Monat: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail
Date: May 08, 2005
From: "Mark P. McCahill" <mpm@xxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-728548-1126298-2005.05.08-09.55.27--mpm#umn.edu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
References:
<LYRIS-728548-1126298-2005.05.08-09.55.27--mpm#umn.edu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
I believe that you are getting in trouble because gotoSpace really wants a transform. This makes sense because you really need to specifywhere in the new space you want to arrive, and that is what the transform
does. If you look at TZoomNavigatorMorph>>clickSnapshot you'll see thatis it using the globalTransform of the item (item = the snapshot when it was taken).
owner activeCamera gotoSpace: item root transform: item globalTransform.
I imagine you could use an identity matrix for the transform and arrive at the origin of the new space. If you have some idea of where and in what orientation you want to arrive, you could set that by constructing a transformation matrix with the right x,y,z offsets and rotations. On May 8, 2005, at 9:55 AM, Jens Grubert wrote:
Hello,is it somehow possible for the Avatar to enter a new TSpace without goingthrough a TPortal? I tried TAvatar's "addToNewSpace:aSpace" method but it didn't work out (when calling it with a new TSpace nothing happend). When I tried self activeCamera gotoSpace: toSpace transform: nil. in a TeapotMorph I get the Error: MessageNotUnderstood: UndefinedObject>>composeWith: TUserCamera>>followAvatar TUserCamera>>preRender TUserCamera(TCamera)>>renderView MyTeapotMorph>>glRenderOn: ... Do i have to submit the correct transform? How do i get it? Or is there anything other causing this error? Thanks in advance. Kind regards, Jens -- / "e-bussines or no bussines" \ Jens Grubert +.: c :.+ IT Solutions +. o ..+ Content Managing +. M ..+ Media Design +. L ..+ IT Decisons +. a .+ Hans-Grundig-Str.14 +.: b :.+ 39128 Magdeburg \ e-Mail: jenosch@xxxxxx / Tel. 0391 2544994 +++ Lassen Sie Ihren Gedanken freien Lauf... z.B. per FreeSMS +++ GMX bietet bis zu 100 FreeSMS/Monat: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail --- You are currently subscribed to croquet-user as: mpm@xxxxxxxTo unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-croquet- user-728548G@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: May 08, 2005
From: Jens Grubert <jenosch@xxxxxx>
Hello, is it somehow possible for the Avatar to enter a new TSpace without going through a TPortal? I tried TAvatar's "addToNewSpace:aSpace" method but it didn't work out (when calling it with a new TSpace nothing happend). When I tried self activeCamera gotoSpace: toSpace transform: nil. in a TeapotMorph I get the Error: MessageNotUnderstood: UndefinedObject>>composeWith: TUserCamera>>followAvatar TUserCamera>>preRender TUserCamera(TCamera)>>renderView MyTeapotMorph>>glRenderOn: ... Do i have to submit the correct transform? How do i get it? Or is there anything other causing this error? Thanks in advance. Kind regards, Jens -- / "e-bussines or no bussines" \ Jens Grubert +.: c :.+ IT Solutions +. o ..+ Content Managing +. M ..+ Media Design +. L ..+ IT Decisons +. a .+ Hans-Grundig-Str.14 +.: b :.+ 39128 Magdeburg \ e-Mail: jenosch@xxxxxx / Tel. 0391 2544994 +++ Lassen Sie Ihren Gedanken freien Lauf... z.B. per FreeSMS +++ GMX bietet bis zu 100 FreeSMS/Monat: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail
Date: May 08, 2005
From: Peter Amstutz <tetron@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-959307-1120914-2005.05.05-09.08.35--tetron#interreality.org@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
References:
<LYRIS-959307-1120914-2005.05.05-09.08.35--tetron#interreality.org@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 5 May 2005, David Faught wrote:
One of the basic disconnects is between security views of client-server versus peer-to-peer conversations. Much Internet traffic these days is client-server based, where IP port number blocking almost makes sense from a security view. Peer-to-peer communications are many times viewed like the original Napster - may or may not be legal, and "doesn't follow the rules" that allow it to be controlled in a similar manner to client-server.
I agree that port blocking is certainly stifiling innovation. However there I have some hope that (a) legitimate P2P applications like VoIP will get big enough that sysadmins can't ignore it any longer and (b) IPv6 and the idea that "your cell phone, refrigerator and toaster all have a publicly routable internet address and a web server" will start pushing back against the current trend of blocking everything by making it impractical to do so.
On the other hand, sometimes it does seem like the modern Internet is one big tragedy of the commons, squared...
This kind of thing can be bothersome for a security person and many times if they can get away with just shutting it off, that provides an easy way out. Obviously for the Croquet community, lumping all peer-to-peer applications together in this view is a bad thing. My understanding of the original intent of the Internet clearly favors the decentralized, more resilient nature of peer-to-peer communications, although the commercial developments of recent years have definitely gone a different direction.
My own project (VOS, which bears some similarities to Croquet) started out with the intention of having a fairly decentralized design, where users "owned" their own avatars and connected to each other directly, which allowed for some neat capabilities such as that the world server could crash but all the participants in the space could continue to interact almost as if nothing had happened (well, they could chatting with each other anyway).
Unfortunately what tripped us up was Network Address Translation (NAT) which is extremely common in home and small office networks where the whole network shares a single IP to be able to talk to the internet. In that case there is no way to get the firewall to forward inbound TCP connections without manual intervention. From what it sounds like, Croquet doesn't handle this either...?
At any rate, we've been forced to fall back to a more server-centric model, where the assumption is that most clients on the desktop are going to be behind restrictive gateways. We can still have *servers* form peer networks, however, which is still a big win. My understanding is that most modern P2P fileswapping networks have adopted a hub-and-spoke model with dynamic "superpeers" that act as aggregators for clients that can't quite participate in the network as full citizens.
To bring this on topic: can Croquet architechture be adopted to work with these sorts of "asymmetric" P2P networks, where some peers are less equal than others? I apologize for not RTFM'ing, although I've skimmed the web page :-) My impression was that the current architechture is basically broadcast based, with some clever ways of smoothing out inconsistancies in synchronization?
[ Peter Amstutz ][ tetron@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ][ piamstutz@xxxxxxxxxx ] [Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet] [ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ] [ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey: pgpkeys.mit.edu 18C21DF7 ] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCfZJAaeHUyhjCHfcRAnUxAJ98Ap4pXHVdNU0QYXheTn8EksOuRQCgqkoR texnH35Ej1MzpdXQtIYlXK4= =9oeP -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Date: May 06, 2005
From: Howard Stearns <hstearns@xxxxxxxx>
Send issues directly to me. -H
Date: May 06, 2005
From: Howard Stearns <hstearns@xxxxxxxx>
Send issues directly to me. -H
Date: May 05, 2005
From: David Faught <dave_faught@xxxxxxxxx>
David A. Smith wrote:
> We believe an important goal of the Croquet project is to create a
> secure and free peer-to-peer communication channel, which is as much
a
> social issue as a technical one. Hence, this kind of discussion is
> appropriate.
One of the basic disconnects is between security views of client-server
versus peer-to-peer conversations. Much Internet traffic these days is
client-server based, where IP port number blocking almost makes sense
from a security view. Peer-to-peer communications are many times
viewed like the original Napster - may or may not be legal, and
"doesn't follow the rules" that allow it to be controlled in a similar
manner to client-server.
This kind of thing can be bothersome for a security person and many
times if they can get away with just shutting it off, that provides an
easy way out. Obviously for the Croquet community, lumping all
peer-to-peer applications together in this view is a bad thing. My
understanding of the original intent of the Internet clearly favors the
decentralized, more resilient nature of peer-to-peer communications,
although the commercial developments of recent years have definitely
gone a different direction.
P.S. In my earlier post on this subject, somehow I managed to come
down on the same side of the issue from two different starting points,
while trying to pass that off as seeing both sides of the issue. I
think that's called propaganda, and I apologize.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Date: May 05, 2005
From: Chris Thorn <cathorn@xxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-981899-1120166-2005.05.04-18.36.16--cathorn#wisc.edu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
References:
<LYRIS-981899-1120166-2005.05.04-18.36.16--cathorn#wisc.edu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Hi,Here at UW-Madison, there will be a mandatory minimum level of port blocking campus wide with delegated authority to departments and colleges to be more restrictive where necessary. In our school of education (where I sit) we have federated all of our buildings into several virtual networks that have explicitly different use cases and security policies. The server network is - deny all unless explicitly allowed. Most workstation space will be deny anything that looks like a server service. Croquet is likely to fall into this category. Our problem is that we have a network with lots of human subjects and educational (FERPA) data on it. The assumption (proved correct 90% of the time) is that end users don't know enough or pay enough attention to take security seriously. Therefore, we will not allow them to run servers (read server-like applications). If they need server services, they need for a sysadmin to install it on a patched, protected server for their use. One compromised workstation could be used to launch an attack that could compromise millions of $$$ in research.
This is a big kick in the teeth to the Croquet model if it looks like anything other than a piece of client software - like a browser. That fact that we have as a university-wed policy decentralized the decision making about this means that one cannot contact central IT and "get it fixed".
Chris Tao Starbow wrote:
This is not just an issue of a lone, disturbed sys admin at berkeley. Our network guy is just coming in to compliance with a new firewall policy that is UC-wide. I suspect "block all that is not explicitly allowed" is going to become a defacto standard on intranets everywhere. Whether it is a good solution to the massive assault on our networks or not, it is happening, and Croquet is going to have to figure out how to work around it.-tao David A. Smith wrote:Harry,Not quite off topic. This is a very real problem, not just for Croquet, but for any architecture that is edge based. Of course, this is where the really interesting new Internet applications are, AND this is exactly what certain governments - and institutions - are attempting to control (you think it is bad now, just wait until ITU is in charge). In essence, this is a direct attack on your ability to communicate what you want in the way you would like to. David's note may be a bit extreme, but consider that this is yet another small step in limiting your ability to interact with your peers through the Internet. In this case, these limits are not being imposed by government fiat as they are in other countries (so far), but by bureaucrats that have the users best interests in mind - as they see it. Another small step toward a closed, dead system. It amounts to the same thing in the end. David is right to be angry that a bastion of the free-speech movement in the 60s and 70s has been so corrupted that this issue is not even given a moment of consideration by "those who make the rules". Nor by those that are affected by it.We believe an important goal of the Croquet project is to create a secure and free peer-to-peer communication channel, which is as much a social issue as a technical one. Hence, this kind of discussion is appropriate.There is very much more to this issue, and we can't possibly cover the scope of it. But we should acknowledge that this will have a direct impact on the development of Croquet and other systems like it, and we should work to educate those that are in a position to control the infrastructure. If this kind of discussion becomes too distracting, then we can set up another list for it. I doubt that there is enough traffic to warrant that at the moment.Regards, David A. Smith Harry Saddler wrote:On May 4, 2005, at 5:45 AM, David P. Reed wrote:In the name of "security", UCBs dorks have adopted a policy against free speech. In the late '60's, those who wanted the freedom to speak at Berkeley fought for it. The new UCB is in my opinion full of wimps who don't understand what that was about.Slandering the whole of UC Berkeley because some person or persons there is, in your opinion, technically inept and unwilling to apply the principles of the Free Speech Movement to their network protocols, is ridiculous, not to mention off-topic.Harry
-- Dr. Chris Thorn Assistant Scientist & Director of Technical Services Wisconsin Center for Education Research 1025 W. Johnson St., Room 370 Madison, WI 53706 http://facstaff.wcer.wisc.edu/cathornTel: 608-263-2709 Fax: 608-265-9300
Date: May 04, 2005
From: Tao Starbow <starbow@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-728653-1119680-2005.05.04-15.01.56--starbow#citris-uc.org@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
References:
<LYRIS-728653-1119680-2005.05.04-15.01.56--starbow#citris-uc.org@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
-tao David A. Smith wrote:
Harry,Not quite off topic. This is a very real problem, not just for Croquet, but for any architecture that is edge based. Of course, this is where the really interesting new Internet applications are, AND this is exactly what certain governments - and institutions - are attempting to control (you think it is bad now, just wait until ITU is in charge). In essence, this is a direct attack on your ability to communicate what you want in the way you would like to. David's note may be a bit extreme, but consider that this is yet another small step in limiting your ability to interact with your peers through the Internet. In this case, these limits are not being imposed by government fiat as they are in other countries (so far), but by bureaucrats that have the users best interests in mind - as they see it. Another small step toward a closed, dead system. It amounts to the same thing in the end. David is right to be angry that a bastion of the free-speech movement in the 60s and 70s has been so corrupted that this issue is not even given a moment of consideration by "those who make the rules". Nor by those that are affected by it.We believe an important goal of the Croquet project is to create a secure and free peer-to-peer communication channel, which is as much a social issue as a technical one. Hence, this kind of discussion is appropriate.There is very much more to this issue, and we can't possibly cover the scope of it. But we should acknowledge that this will have a direct impact on the development of Croquet and other systems like it, and we should work to educate those that are in a position to control the infrastructure. If this kind of discussion becomes too distracting, then we can set up another list for it. I doubt that there is enough traffic to warrant that at the moment.Regards, David A. Smith Harry Saddler wrote:On May 4, 2005, at 5:45 AM, David P. Reed wrote:In the name of "security", UCBs dorks have adopted a policy against free speech. In the late '60's, those who wanted the freedom to speak at Berkeley fought for it. The new UCB is in my opinion full of wimps who don't understand what that was about.Slandering the whole of UC Berkeley because some person or persons there is, in your opinion, technically inept and unwilling to apply the principles of the Free Speech Movement to their network protocols, is ridiculous, not to mention off-topic.Harry ---You are currently subscribed to croquet-user as: davidasmith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-croquet-user-829196H@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx--- You are currently subscribed to croquet-user as: starbow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxTo unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-croquet-user-829196H@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: May 04, 2005
From: Howard Stearns <hstearns@xxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to:
<LYRIS-750925-1119816-2005.05.04-15.55.52--hstearns#wisc.edu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
References:
<LYRIS-750925-1119816-2005.05.04-15.55.52--hstearns#wisc.edu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
My own view is that I need to understand tea parties better before I can hope to really understand how capabilities fits in. It takes time.
But I do want to make sure that folks don't get hung up on the word "authentication." Authenticated messaging might not necessarily imply authenticated users. And a capability model should be able to support the latter (e.g., you have might have the capability to assert that you are John Carlson).
On May 4, 2005, at 6:14 AM, David P. Reed wrote:
...Croquet is being designed to live with hostiles - the next generation uses encrypted and authenticated messaging on top of TCP/UDP anyway.
... On May 4, 2005, at 3:28 PM, John Carlson wrote:
I am looking forward to the development of authentication in Croquet. Maybe it can serve as a model for other applications.I'm not sure that typical authentication is the best solution. Perhaps croquet should look at capability security. My basic understanding of capability security is that you can't do anything unless you have a reference to the object that includes the permitted operations you can perform on the object. Basically, you have to be "introduced" to an object. Take a look at YURLs. I think the equivalent in croquet would be to introduce someone to a world by giving them a capability to a portal. The real world metaphor for capabilities is keys. The nice thing about keys is that you don'tneed to prove you are someone before you enter the secured domain.However, I think that it may be dangerous to have keys to key rooms. I welcomesuggestions for alternatives for key rooms. John --- You are currently subscribed to croquet-user as: hstearns@xxxxxxxxTo unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-croquet-user-829196H@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx